Never forget their butchery and the way they continue to defend it today.”

Ahhh STFU maxypad.

Go Look in the mirror and your own fucking backyard.

need I remind you…

Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, Thats right Kosovo, NOT Kosova.
NATO and its ring of missiles around Russia

Screw your “Freedom” and “Democracy”.

Go and tell that to your Handlers in Tel Aviv and D.C.
Neocon Asshole.

What I wanted to say is that many Chinese respect what the 1989 protesters have done, but the circumstances have change so much, and the typical Klortho’s point of view does annoy many people.

Sometimes, people just embrace the opposite ideas when they were pissed off by someone. More than 80% of Chinese believe that China is changing in the right direction, so, It is very unlikely that Klortho would get the Chinese thinking his way, more likely the other way. If you wanna do something good, do it in a smart way.

I definitely see guys like you as positive factors on China’s way of changing.

@Chang: Who’s talking about hating anyone? This isn’t a hip hop rivalry – we can disagree and still all be friends. And also do not confuse the differences between Klortho’s opinion and my own as any lack of sympathy for the ’89 protesters. That’s simply not what is being discussed.

@Klortho:

I believe nothing good came out of the tragedy of SixFour. But it’s impossible to prove either way … we’ll never know what things would have been like if it hadn’t happened. So that’s why I pointed towards examples of other countries that have been comparably prosperous, but don’t have the history of their authoritarian governments mowing down their own people by the hundreds or thousands.

So, it is your belief that had (a) the protests of 1989 never happened, and in turn the crackdown never happened, China would likely still be the economic miracle it has become over the last 20 years? Or (b) had the protests happened, and peacefully resolved (with no “real” change – ie. a revolution of sorts), China would likely still be the economic miracle it has become over the last 20 years? Or (c) are you saying that SixFour could have been a peaceful stepping stone a la The Velvet Revolution, the end of apartheid in South Africa, etc.?

I’m not trying to pigeon hole you here, I’m just trying to understand what your meaning is. Not that it really matters, because none of those things did happen, what happened happened and that’s my point. I’m not trying to excuse it, I’m not trying to say “let bygones be bygones”, and I’m not saying that those responsible shouldn’t answer for their crimes.

My belief is only that the rapid economic reforms of the early 90s were inspired by the events of SixFour. I believe they were a legitimization effort by a government shocked and reeling for having rolled out their army on their own people.

You seem to be implying that to recognize this, or even imply that there could be a connection is to some how dishonour and disservice those who died. I simply disagree with that.

Oh, by all means, let’s all let go of all of our illusions of responsibility … why not? No one person can ever really make a difference anyway, so I guess none of us is really responsible for anything. Too bad those sad, pathetic protesters of 1989 didn’t let go of their illusions of responsibility … it’s their own fault they got killed and thrown in prison, really.

That’s not what he was saying, and you know it. Not once did AndyR say “all“. What he’s saying, in agreement with my central argument here, is that as foreigners our “responsibilities” are not equal to the responsibilities of nationals to decide the course of their own country.

You may not have said you are trying to save China from itself, but your implication of it is a strong connector throughout all your comments here. And I think maybe that’s where we’re disagreeing – I think you read me saying “we have no responsibility” as “we all need to be indifferent to the plights of our fellow man.” But that’s not what I’m saying. Of course I think we all need to care – I don’t think that’s stupid or naive. I do think it’s naive to assume that caring equals action. And, similarly, that saying “action is not our place as foreigners” equals a lack of caring.

I think even foreigners can have an influence on more moderate, reasonable, and rational Chinese people, if the communication is done in a way that engenders mutual respect.

I agree. Just as Chinese can have influence over more moderate, reasonable and rational Americans. But that’s not the change that moves nations.

I’ll end my thoughts on this with a repeat of what I said earlier in this thread — while history teaches me that foreign ideologies are often welcomed within borders, it also shows foreigners with ideologies are not. Despite their common horticultural metaphors, planting your opinion-swaying seeds in the Chinese population, doesn’t make a grassroots movement. That’s a Chinese “responsibility” should they choose it to be so.

you have to let go of your illusions of “responsibility”.

Oh, by all means, let’s all let go of all of our illusions of responsibility … why not? No one person can ever really make a difference anyway, so I guess none of us is really responsible for anything. Too bad those sad, pathetic protesters of 1989 didn’t let go of their illusions of responsibility … it’s their own fault they got killed and thrown in prison, really.

I just don’t understand what’s so stupid or naive about caring about your fellow man, even if he’s from China. And I never said anything to imply that I’m fooling myself into “believing that [my] “brilliant” observations are “saving” China from itself.” 怒!

True heroes that inspire and move me … are not the foot soldiers, and often not even the commanders; these unique few aren’t the ones that make up the Cause Army. No, largely those positions are held by students so eager to believe in something they don’t stop to really understand the issue they are so galvanized about.

This relates to Sturgeon’s Law … 90% of everything is crap. People often use the worst examples of something to malign a whole group, or country — China is often the victim of this. It will always be true that in any movement or political party, no matter how just, the vast majority of followers will be bleeting moronic sheep.

You seem to be stating that by acknowledging that good things came out of the tragedy of SixFour, …

This gets down to the core of our disagreement too, I think. I believe nothing good came out of the tragedy of SixFour. But it’s impossible to prove either way … we’ll never know what things would have been like if it hadn’t happened. So that’s why I pointed towards examples of other countries that have been comparably prosperous, but don’t have the history of their authoritarian governments mowing down their own people by the hundreds or thousands.

Finally, I don’t agree with you that your blog posts accomplish nothing, or that other types of actions by foreigners mean nothing. I think even foreigners can have an influence on more moderate, reasonable, and rational Chinese people, if the communication is done in a way that engenders mutual respect. I hope I don’t come across as screaming, “Hear me and know my truth is the truth!” when I talk to my Chinese friends — I’ve never gotten that feedback from them (only from you ). Maybe I’m naive, but I think that swaying people’s opinions, one person at a time, is an achievable and worthwhile goal.

As for the end game … who knows? But the way things are going, with the Chinese government’s stranglehold on information, their extremely efficient propaganda machine, their one-party system, etc., etc., scares the hell out of me.

But why use the twenty year anniversary of Tian’anmen to examine the good changes in China? Just by making this link, you are making a statement. Why not use the anniversary to reflect on what hasn’t changed? Why not reflect on all the political prisoners still being held, on the repression and lack of freedoms? Don’t you see that in your post you’re providing a little capsule narrative with a happy ending, and that even if it wasn’t your intention, it certainly sounds like you’re saying, “all’s well that ends well”?

I think this is what it all comes down to. I don’t think my post was strikingly unbalanced in reflecting on both. If it was slanted towards the positive, it’s because this is a blog post and not an essay or report. It was written stream of consciousness (I actually started the post as a preface to writing about an interesting tweet I saw about using Google Trends to compare TAMsq to Britney Spears, but then realized I had more to say about it).

Knowing you, and your ethics, I don’t think we’re all that misaligned. But I do think I’m a bit more cynical of the (largely Western) Cause Machine. There are people fighting for causes that I think are fantastic. True heroes that inspire and move me. But I don’t think there is any doubt in anyone’s mind that these are not the foot soldiers, and often not even the commanders; these unique few aren’t the ones that make up the Cause Army. No, largely those positions are held by students so eager to believe in something they don’t stop to really understand the issue they are so galvanized about.

But please don’t mistake my cynicism as patronizing ‘holier than thou’, “I’m an expat, I know China!” sentiment. I really don’t. In fact, though I’m certain I have a wider perspective on the world than I did when I was in my early 20s and an eager member of the Cause Army I’m now a bit critical of, I’m not much closer to knowing the answers.

What has unequivocally changed is that I now know I’m unsure. Whereas when I was younger I knew I was right.

You’re right that sometimes my shoulder’s chip towards the arrogance and ignorance of cause crusaders bubbles over here. But you’ll find I’m no opponent to doing the right thing and I’m sure if you dug here and at my personal blog you’d find a number of examples proving that. Nor am I an enemy to strong convictions, provided they make some amount of rational sense.

And having and stating strong convictions doesn’t necessarily make you patronizing, even if you are western and your audience is Chinese. It may be perceived that way, but I think that has more to do with the effectiveness of the Chinese propoganda machine than anything else.

You’re right. But it is also not fair to assume that if something is part of Chinese propaganda that it is automatically wrong. We both have the benefit of living inside and outside two very different propaganda machines. That is a gift of perspective that many don’t have, and one I’m grateful for.

You seem to be stating that by acknowledging that good things came out of the tragedy of SixFour, is to accept that the government’s actions were ok and justifiable. I don’t know how many times I can state this — it isn’t, it really isn’t.

But what’s the end game? To get those still jailed released? To get a monument on TAMsq commemorating those protesters (and soldiers?) who were needlessly killed? To get the gov’t of 2009 to admit that the gov’t of 1989 was wrong?

Those are Chinese questions. However any of us foreigners feel about the injustices that took place in China twenty years ago, means dick in reaching that end game. We’re barely in the bleachers, and we’re most certainly wearing the wrong team’s jersey.

You keep saying that by writing this post I’ve already taken “action”. Continuing with my metaphor, that’s about the same as us being in the parking lot and me telling my buddies who I want to win the game. Physically, it’s action. Practically, it’s nothing.

So, in recognizing my station in all this, my feeling (and in turn my writing) shows that I would rather recognize that the people who gave their lives in Beijing two decades ago did so, unwittingly or not, to bring about much of the changes modern China enjoys.

If TAMsq. gets its monument, that’d be great too.

[Comment preview got disabled, as it was conflicting with the js library I'm using on the site. Will try to find a work around - agreed, it's cool. Tell Sonja I like you too ]