Comments on: Nanjing – Listen up and put it to bed http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/ No-nonsense China Expat & Travel Community Thu, 09 Feb 2012 03:53:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Tuberman http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-13091 Tuberman Mon, 20 Apr 2009 06:34:08 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-13091 WW2 was a shameful period for humanity..... and for those who say we can never let this happen again, IT IS!! In Africa attrocities on a similar level to WW2 are occuring as i type this message. Japan wont apologies because then they will be in a position in which they must make reparations. Japan isnt going to attack anyone ever again because it doesnt have an army and even then.... the UN/SC would prevent them AND they are democratic and are allies of the US and much of the international community. i dont see any problems here.... Like many countries who are accused of genocide, Japan will never recognize it, China will never forgive. END OF STORY!!!! The US doesnt even teach about the Japanese invasion much (maybe 2-3 pages of it) not even that its a genocide. Let China and Japan bitch over who did what... neither will apologize/forgive its all about politics and legal trouble.... how about global warming, N Korea nuclear testing, economy, drug cartels moving their industry in to the US? =P WW2 was a shameful period for humanity….. and for those who say we can never let this happen again, IT IS!! In Africa attrocities on a similar level to WW2 are occuring as i type this message. Japan wont apologies because then they will be in a position in which they must make reparations. Japan isnt going to attack anyone ever again because it doesnt have an army and even then…. the UN/SC would prevent them AND they are democratic and are allies of the US and much of the international community. i dont see any problems here…. Like many countries who are accused of genocide, Japan will never recognize it, China will never forgive. END OF STORY!!!!

The US doesnt even teach about the Japanese invasion much (maybe 2-3 pages of it) not even that its a genocide. Let China and Japan bitch over who did what… neither will apologize/forgive its all about politics and legal trouble….

how about global warming, N Korea nuclear testing, economy, drug cartels moving their industry in to the US? =P

]]> By: Roger http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-9737 Roger Fri, 02 May 2008 20:28:55 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-9737 I agree! I agree! I am so glad someone else has said this. Both sides are at fault. The Chinese use the issue for political leverage, when some disagreement comes up with Japan, over trade etc. the Chinese can always make use of the old war crimes issue. This is not the way politics is conducted in Europe, in the United Kingdom we dont blame the Germans for the bombing of Coventry when were angry at their economic policy, for instance. But the Japanese, both government and population, continue to give credence to the ludicrous idea that this didnt happen. The vocal far-right is allowed to monopolise the debate, and the Japanese public are so insular that theyre receptive to philosophies that absolve their guilt. Bizarre rightists in positions of power are allowed to make the most ludicrous statements, and create the most ludicrous policies. Japan MUST stop publishing text books etc. that misrepresent their role in WW2, they must stop treating what amounts to holocaust denial as real scholarship, they need to stop tacitly endorsing the far-right. China needs to realise that harking back to the 1940s everytime there is a disagreement with its neighbours is not the way modern states do business. It achieves even less for China than it does for Japan, and even devalues the horrific events of the war. I agree! I agree! I am so glad someone else has said this. Both sides are at fault. The Chinese use the issue for political leverage, when some disagreement comes up with Japan, over trade etc. the Chinese can always make use of the old war crimes issue. This is not the way politics is conducted in Europe, in the United Kingdom we dont blame the Germans for the bombing of Coventry when were angry at their economic policy, for instance.

But the Japanese, both government and population, continue to give credence to the ludicrous idea that this didnt happen. The vocal far-right is allowed to monopolise the debate, and the Japanese public are so insular that theyre receptive to philosophies that absolve their guilt. Bizarre rightists in positions of power are allowed to make the most ludicrous statements, and create the most ludicrous policies.

Japan MUST stop publishing text books etc. that misrepresent their role in WW2, they must stop treating what amounts to holocaust denial as real scholarship, they need to stop tacitly endorsing the far-right. China needs to realise that harking back to the 1940s everytime there is a disagreement with its neighbours is not the way modern states do business. It achieves even less for China than it does for Japan, and even devalues the horrific events of the war.

]]> By: matthew http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8065 matthew Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:41:25 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8065 First off, I've met plenty of Chinese who think more of their people died at the hands of the Japanese than Jews at the hands of Nazis. By the logic of China, I should still hate the Germans. I've tried explaining to a number of them why I don't hate the Germans and why I shouldn't. It never does sink in. And the Chinese don't even think Hitler was evil!? I walked into a restaurant that is proud of the fact that they won't serve Japanese (tons of articles and propaganda on the wall about that). And then, they hang a photo of Hitler right next to one of Elvis. Something is seriously screwed up with that mentality. First off, I’ve met plenty of Chinese who think more of their people died at the hands of the Japanese than Jews at the hands of Nazis.

By the logic of China, I should still hate the Germans. I’ve tried explaining to a number of them why I don’t hate the Germans and why I shouldn’t. It never does sink in.

And the Chinese don’t even think Hitler was evil!? I walked into a restaurant that is proud of the fact that they won’t serve Japanese (tons of articles and propaganda on the wall about that). And then, they hang a photo of Hitler right next to one of Elvis. Something is seriously screwed up with that mentality.

]]> By: Amban http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8042 Amban Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:40:28 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8042 First, I think it is wrong of the Japanese government to approve textbooks that play down the Nanking Massacre and it does nothing to ameliorate Sino-Japanese relations. Having said that, I think we need to remember that the government approved textbook which sparked the anti-Japanese protests in 2005, was but <i>one</i> textbook and there are many Japanese textbooks that do mention the tragedy, some of which give the figure of 200 000 casualties. Here are a couple of excerpts from a number of Japanese history textbooks: http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/China/Nanjing/nanjing3.html First, I think it is wrong of the Japanese government to approve textbooks that play down the Nanking Massacre and it does nothing to ameliorate Sino-Japanese relations.

Having said that, I think we need to remember that the government approved textbook which sparked the anti-Japanese protests in 2005, was but one textbook and there are many Japanese textbooks that do mention the tragedy, some of which give the figure of 200 000 casualties. Here are a couple of excerpts from a number of Japanese history textbooks:

http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/China/Nanjing/nanjing3.html

]]> By: Ryan http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8040 Ryan Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:32:01 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8040 @Casamia: The reason you're never going to get a heart-felt responsibility from Japan is because Japan is a country - it doesn't have a heart. It's land, borders, buildings... it's not a person. The apology by your standards can never be good enough. In my mind acknowledgment by the country's people that Japanese aggression in WWII was wrong is apology enough. But then, I'm not Chinese, nor Jewish - so... @Alec: Don't worry about it man. I've met lots of Japanese students and business folk, and I not heard screams of poor treatment from any of them. @Chip: I agree. I also doubt the Japanese will do much more than they have - too much time has passed and they're right to just want to move on with things and not continually have to attempt to atone for the sins of their grandfathers. I think what they do need to control is this idea that the voice of these right-wing nationalist dickheads are the voice of Japan - which is completely untrue and a poor representation of the country or its people. The situation now with all this crap being printed about Japan "white washing" history is garbage, and somewhat on par with the world reporting that German is becoming overrun with Nazis again when there are just a few vocal racist Aryan dickwads in the country. Which is also my response to Andy's comment - it's important for EVERYONE to recognize that despite all that history book crap being displayed in every fucking newspaper across the globe - in reality the "modified" text books were produced by a small (but vocal) right-wing group of deniers and is used by 1% or less of the Japanese education system... It's completely out of whack to think this this sort of extremism is the de facto education of Japan's youth. @Casamia: The reason you’re never going to get a heart-felt responsibility from Japan is because Japan is a country – it doesn’t have a heart. It’s land, borders, buildings… it’s not a person. The apology by your standards can never be good enough. In my mind acknowledgment by the country’s people that Japanese aggression in WWII was wrong is apology enough. But then, I’m not Chinese, nor Jewish – so…

@Alec: Don’t worry about it man. I’ve met lots of Japanese students and business folk, and I not heard screams of poor treatment from any of them.

@Chip: I agree. I also doubt the Japanese will do much more than they have – too much time has passed and they’re right to just want to move on with things and not continually have to attempt to atone for the sins of their grandfathers.

I think what they do need to control is this idea that the voice of these right-wing nationalist dickheads are the voice of Japan – which is completely untrue and a poor representation of the country or its people.

The situation now with all this crap being printed about Japan “white washing” history is garbage, and somewhat on par with the world reporting that German is becoming overrun with Nazis again when there are just a few vocal racist Aryan dickwads in the country.

Which is also my response to Andy’s comment – it’s important for EVERYONE to recognize that despite all that history book crap being displayed in every fucking newspaper across the globe – in reality the “modified” text books were produced by a small (but vocal) right-wing group of deniers and is used by 1% or less of the Japanese education system…

It’s completely out of whack to think this this sort of extremism is the de facto education of Japan’s youth.

]]> By: Andy http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8037 Andy Sun, 16 Dec 2007 15:15:52 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8037 This really has nothing to do with apologizes - I couldn't care less for apologies. This has to do with accurately acknowledging the facts, which means not rewriting history in Japanese textbooks. The biggest offense here is Japan's continuous insistence on whitewashing their own history with revisionist accounts. Imagine if Germany changed references in textbooks to the Holocaust as the "Jewish incident," and gave credence to Holocaust deniers. Imagine if American history textbooks had accounts of slavery that said, "people disputes whether slavery truly occurred on American soil." That's what's happening in Japan - that is what the dispute is about. China has done many bad things as well - no one disputes that. But we're talking specifically about what Japan has done. Also, there were more that 300k deaths caused by Japanese war crimes, including hundreds of thousands who died as a result of Japanese germ warfare conducted against Chinese civilian populations. In all, there were 17 million Chinese civilian deaths in World War 2. This really has nothing to do with apologizes – I couldn’t care less for apologies. This has to do with accurately acknowledging the facts, which means not rewriting history in Japanese textbooks. The biggest offense here is Japan’s continuous insistence on whitewashing their own history with revisionist accounts. Imagine if Germany changed references in textbooks to the Holocaust as the “Jewish incident,” and gave credence to Holocaust deniers. Imagine if American history textbooks had accounts of slavery that said, “people disputes whether slavery truly occurred on American soil.” That’s what’s happening in Japan – that is what the dispute is about. China has done many bad things as well – no one disputes that. But we’re talking specifically about what Japan has done. Also, there were more that 300k deaths caused by Japanese war crimes, including hundreds of thousands who died as a result of Japanese germ warfare conducted against Chinese civilian populations. In all, there were 17 million Chinese civilian deaths in World War 2.

]]> By: JL http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8036 JL Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:55:49 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8036 The biggest idiots are undoubtedly the Japanese deniers. But I also think that it might help if Chinese people understood fascism / ultra-nationalism a bit better. Unlike the former allied countries, whose education systems and media seem obsessed with the Nazis and their rise, I think there is very little understanding in China of how Japan developed into the society which created the murderous Imperial army. The biggest idiots are undoubtedly the Japanese deniers. But I also think that it might help if Chinese people understood fascism / ultra-nationalism a bit better. Unlike the former allied countries, whose education systems and media seem obsessed with the Nazis and their rise, I think there is very little understanding in China of how Japan developed into the society which created the murderous Imperial army.

]]> By: Chip http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8035 Chip Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:34:45 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8035 Alec, I personally know some japanese students here, and they've told me they're generally accepted and treated well. Don't be shy to use your real kanji name, never be ashamed of who you are. My philosophy on relations with people is: if people like me and treat me well, great! But if some people treat me wrong, I'd rather not be chummy with them in the first place. So come on over, you'll meet some great people, and learn a great language. There are some jerks, but don't let them ruin it for you. Alec,

I personally know some japanese students here, and they’ve told me they’re generally accepted and treated well. Don’t be shy to use your real kanji name, never be ashamed of who you are. My philosophy on relations with people is: if people like me and treat me well, great! But if some people treat me wrong, I’d rather not be chummy with them in the first place. So come on over, you’ll meet some great people, and learn a great language. There are some jerks, but don’t let them ruin it for you.

]]> By: Chip http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8034 Chip Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:31:47 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8034 Ok, Casamia, here's one for you. I hope Japan apologizes for the 18th time, while the government of China apologizes for Tianandoor, SARS, FA loon gung, the great leap forward, the cultural revolution, and for the hukou system. Let's not forget beijing's pollution and the lead in my cousin's toys. Oh, and the apology has to be sincere, or else I'll tell my kids to hate Chinese people, and their kids too. Fair? And yes, hatred of an entire race IS discrimination. By the way, Casamia, how old are you? Were you actually involved in the war against japan? Were you attacked? Has any japanese person ever harmed you? I'll take a wild guess and assume your answer to all these questions is no. Ok, Casamia, here’s one for you.

I hope Japan apologizes for the 18th time, while the government of China apologizes for Tianandoor, SARS, FA loon gung, the great leap forward, the cultural revolution, and for the hukou system. Let’s not forget beijing’s pollution and the lead in my cousin’s toys. Oh, and the apology has to be sincere, or else I’ll tell my kids to hate Chinese people, and their kids too. Fair?

And yes, hatred of an entire race IS discrimination.

By the way, Casamia, how old are you? Were you actually involved in the war against japan? Were you attacked? Has any japanese person ever harmed you? I’ll take a wild guess and assume your answer to all these questions is no.

]]> By: casamia http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/general/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8030 casamia Sat, 15 Dec 2007 18:56:52 +0000 http://www.lostlaowai.com/commentary/blog/2007/12/13/nanjing-listen-up-and-put-it-to-bed/#comment-8030 By the way, the words 'discriminate' and 'hate/dislike/disgust/' are qutie different, so please don't use those words interchangeably. By the way, the words ‘discriminate’ and ‘hate/dislike/disgust/’ are qutie different, so please don’t use those words interchangeably.

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